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Post by Bristol Glory on Jan 10, 2013 14:01:12 GMT -6
In regards to the gathering I proposed, I didn't intend for it to sound like a formal meeting. Just a casual get-together hosted by the Circle in different locations.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 10, 2013 14:11:59 GMT -6
It was one of the best nights in LotRO when I stumbled upon a guild hosting one of those causal get-togethers. Granted, they were mostly hobbits so a grand time was also assured to be had. Though I never fully joined up with them, because their playstyle didn't match up with mine, I looked at any of their members in a really positive light. I saw one of their members struggling later and jumped in to lend a hand without even really thinking about it even though I hadn't met that one in particular.
I love the idea of us doing a similar thing. It just breeds good-will and offers great networking opportunities.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 10, 2013 14:19:31 GMT -6
Well, in pathfinder lore, the seventh day of the week (Sunday) is a day of rest. I could see us doing some sort of settlement community feast to honor the day.
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Post by Leonidas Wahrheit on Jan 10, 2013 18:11:05 GMT -6
I am absolutely game for this.
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Post by chaiguy on Jan 11, 2013 1:18:11 GMT -6
In regards to the gathering I proposed, I didn't intend for it to sound like a formal meeting. Just a casual get-together hosted by the Circle in different locations. If this is in regards to my comment, then I guess it answers my question. You could have said that you proposed meeting in game rather than in real life, like I originally thought you meant.
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Post by hark on Jan 11, 2013 12:40:10 GMT -6
My ideas for Initiates.
Anybody can be an Initiate so long as they can get a Keeper or higher to sponsor them.
Initiates don't actually belong to any Circle. As an Initiate a person receives training on Circle Philosophy, Policies, Methods and learn about each Circle. The Initiate is also evaluated to be sure if they are a good fit for The Keepers of the Circle. If a person is found to not meet our standards they are dropped.
An Initiate after completing training may apply to join a Circle. This requires the sponsorship of a Warden of that Circle, and a simple majority vote of that Circles Wardens to become a member. If vote fails to pass, the person remains an Initiate and may reapply later or apply to a different Circle.
Wardens reserve the right to set conditions that the Initiate must meet before the Warden will sponsor them. I expect a period of apprenticeship would be pretty common.
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Post by Zaluke on Jan 14, 2013 11:07:46 GMT -6
I like the idea of actually being involved in the process of creating your ring. If the game gives us enough freedom then I propose the following:
Moving from Initiate to Keeper you create (or are somehow involved in the creation process for) a simple banded ring. It can be a cheap metal or rope. It's more symbolic than anything.
When moving from a Keeper to a Warden I think that a new ring should be crafted representing whatever material the ring you are a Warden of is (wood, steel, iron, gold, et cetera). In game this might have to be the same ring with a different color, it depends on how refined the crafting process is. We would also have to pick substitutes for some of them (for example, shadow could be adamantine, obsidian, or cold iron perhaps).
I think it would be cool to eventually be able to look at what ring someone has and know what they are a warden of without having to read their character description. This is of course provided rings are large enough to see and that models are actually made for them. It could be anything circular though, so we could use circlets, belts, armbands, et cetera.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 10:14:36 GMT -6
I'm still strongly in favor of an Initiate level. Much like what Zaluke and Hark are saying. Part of me just feels like Keepers should have a ring and there should be something below them if they are undecided.
If you take a look at how we have grown already, we have people registering on the forums and getting the title "New Member" they then introduce themselves and discuss which ring they would like to join. After a time their title gets changes to reflect their ring choice. If you just change "New Member" to the word Initiate that is pretty much the system we are talking about.
It can always be formalized with sponsorships and votes from Wardens etc. I would suggest that a Keeper can sponsor an initiate, but the Wardens vote to make it official. My argument for having Keepers sponsor is for reducing a middleman step for people trying to get their friends to join. If I am a Keeper of Wood and I have some old adventuring companions that I would like to come join I could sponsor them as Initiates. I would take the responsibility to introduce them to Wardens so they can pass the final vote. But I don't have to start the process by convincing a Warden to sponsor my friends.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 10:34:08 GMT -6
Nym, what then differentiates Keepers from Initiates? I don't think the intention is to make Warden a difficult rank to obtain, and this seems to me to just add an additional step to the process. Instead of going New Member (Keeper) -> Full Member (Warden), you have New Member (Initiate) -> Non-voting Member (Keeper) -> Voting Member (Warden) To steal some of Zaluke's good work, the attached image was my thought process. This gives new members a chance to try things out, meet some people, and find their niche without feeling beholden to any particular Ring. I think a lot of people are coming in with the idea "Oh man, I want to do this." but upon doing it for a bit realize it's not what they thought it would be, or that other thing looks more fun. We've already had one member do so. Attachments:
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 15, 2013 11:06:42 GMT -6
This is exactly the way I picture our hierarchy, Dario. I understand the arguments for an Initiate level, but all it seems is another level of bureaucracy that is pretty much exactly the same as the Keeper level. What bonuses does a Keeper get over an Initiate? That has not been explained. Unless an Initiate is only a title on the boards and an Initiate is not really in the Guild yet? I like the idea of allowing Keepers to sponsor a new member, though. With a number of Wardens voting to make them Keepers.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 11:17:30 GMT -6
Your right Gin, is does point out what exactly are the differences between levels. My argument for initiate is also based on not liking the idea that a Keeper doesn't have a ring or voting rights. The goal is to be a Warden, I get that, but the last I was aware of people were discussing voting up Wardens on a quarterly basis. I do not like the idea of joining a guild and not being able to vote for up to 3 months. That could be just me. My initial call for the Initiate level included opening up Keeper voting to large scale general issues while keeping more sensitive votes limited to Wardens. It would be the call of the inner circle to decide how open the voting is. I know we have discussed that Keeper's voices can still be heard by posting on the forums and persuading Wardens to vote in certain ways. I feel there is a large difference between having to rely on someone else voting and being able to cast one yourself.
If we do keep it as Keepers are ringless members who don't vote, I would seriously urge to up the timetable on being able to become a Warden. Three months is a long time in a game. Three months to wait to even be considered a member of a ring is too much.
I will write up a formal draft of what I'm suggesting, it just might take me awhile. It is just my opinion anyway, if we don't go with it I will not take it personally. Whatever we go with will be chosen because people think it is what will be best for the group as a whole, and I will fully support that decision.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 15, 2013 11:26:18 GMT -6
I'm in the same camp as Nymerias--Initiate indicates folks with interest in the Circle that aren't members yet. Keepers can (borrowing from Light's contract) vote no-confidence in leadership, Keepers could nominate wardens (as sort of a representative democracy), etc. As Nym says, it gives the general population of the Circle some empowerment and say in the organization, without requiring everyone to quickly become Wardens (a route that would seem to devalue Wardens). At a game play level, it separates folks into interested but not in, casual/infrequent players, and dedicated players.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 11:33:08 GMT -6
I agree that three months is a long time to wait to become a warden. I would personally suggest that after some minimum time has elapsed (say, 1 month) a Warden of the Ring the Keeper is seeking to join may sponsor them. At that point, as we discussed in the Wardens thread, a random Warden of each Ring is selected as a review board. If they pass the review board, they become Wardens. If Rings want to put additional requirements on a nomination, that would be on them, but I should think those would come into play before coming before the review board.
Ex. If the Ring of Steel requires a two week training course before you can become a member of the ring, Keepers should complete that *before* being sponsored for Wardenship in that ring.
This reminds me of a separate issue that I'm going to take back to the Wardens thread.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 11:42:50 GMT -6
Proposed Charter Hierarchy
These excerpts are from the original introduction Hrod gave that influenced how I thought the guild was to be organized. I know this is all subject to change; I just want to point out where my thought process came from. Emphasis added is mine.
“The Circle itself is a representation of Life; as such, those who are Keepers of the Circle support that which advances life. The Circle of life is made up of Rings, each of which covers a different aspect of life. Every member of the Circle is known as a Keeper - each Keeper may belong to no Rings, one Ring, or several Rings, but may only hold elected rank in a single Ring at a time.”
“Keepers of the Circle may be elected by a unanimous vote into the Wardens of the Circle - the "officers" of the organization, Wardens have the power of direct votes in the top-level decisions of the Circle. Wardens are further eligible to hold specific offices. Each Ring has a Guardian, an administrative and leadership position for the Ring. The Guardians are voted in by all members of the Ring to which they belong, but may be overturned by a 2/3 vote of all Wardens. Wardens are also eligible for being elected to become the Lord/Lady Sentinel of the Circle - the overall leader/head administrator of the Circle. The second place candidate will be appointed as the Watcher of the Circle, the Lady/Lord Sentinel's deputy. No member may hold more than one elected office at a time.”
From this explanation I took it as Keeper being the general base membership of the organization. Since Wardens were suggested as “officers” I took that to be intended as a smaller population than Keepers. I also took the sentence about Wardens having direct votes in the top-level decisions to mean that Keepers could have a direct vote on less sensitive matters. I assumed from reading further about the Inner Circle that those individuals would have the responsibility to decide what matters were deemed top-level decisions. So when I joined this was my view of the structure:
Sentinel/Watcher- The leaders tasked with guiding the group and overseeing all aspects of guild functions with the rest of the Inner Circle but with more final power.
Inner Circle- The council of Guardians tasked with overseeing all aspects of the guild functions. They are responsible for calling for votes and determining at what level they should be voted on.
Guardian- Individual tasked with overseeing their Ring and serving in the Inner Circle.
Warden- Officer of their Ring tasked with supporting their Guardian in whatever form needed. Responsibility on voting on internal Ring matters and top-level Circle matters. This status might be required to hold certain positions within a Ring depending on each Ring’s charter.
Keeper- Member of their Ring, responsibility on voting on general matters of the Circle. On internal matters of their Ring they can voice their concerns to the Wardens to ensure they are heard. Must be a Keeper for X amount of time before a Warden of their Ring may sponsor them for Wardenship.
Initiate- New recruit that needs to be sponsored by a Keeper. They will have no vote in any level of the Circle. They take time to get used to the organization and get to know the people. When they feel ready they may ask to join a Ring at which time the Wardens of said Ring will take a vote. If the vote passes they will become a Keeper of said ring. The time spent as an Initiate will also give Shadow a chance to clear them of espionage suspicion.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 11:48:46 GMT -6
So, Nym, just to make sure I'm understanding your proposal. The only distinction between a Keeper and an Initiate is that a Keeper belongs to a ring?
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