Discussion: Rank Structure

[hark]

Personally, I think voting is an entirely separate issue from structure. I repeatedly proposed voting be left ambiguous so that it can be determined later. Not just the full details of voting rights, but of voting procedures as well.

Again this was just a structure proposal, it gives context for future decisions and suggestions to be built around.

[Dario Tashavan]

Jan 27, 2013 9:29:18 GMT -6 Erian El'ranelen said:

If we hold off voting rights entirely until members pass a test/level/criteria/etc., it strikes me as less democratic and more like a meritocracy.

Whether or not it becomes a meritocracy is a question of how advancement is structured. It could be as simple as "You've been in the Circle a month, congrats, you're a full member." or something more involved. Advancement will probably be the next topic up.

Jan 27, 2013 9:29:18 GMT -6 Erian El'ranelen said:

Do note that the voting, however, is really secondary to the rank structure. I favor an approach that allows a broad number of folks (the Keepers) to engage in Circle activities without major commitment, while those looking to spend more time (Wardens) can have a greater hand in directing things. This specifically targets both casual and hard-core gamers. If we're thinking Wardens are proven individuals, then they're hard-core gamers most likely and thus a more limited subset of the overall player base.

I'm not really sure where this is coming from. Even at Warden rank, no one is obligated to do anything. As for the equation between "proven" and "hard-core", I disagree. "Proven" does not necessarily require that you've crafted X magic swords, or defeated Y bandit camps. It's about someone who has established an interest in the group and taken time and opportunity to establish loyalty and integrate into the group.

Jan 27, 2013 13:27:11 GMT -6 WxCougar said:

It always felt to me that Warden would be of a senior member status and one that would hold offices (or not if they choose) in their individual circle. I think this has to do with the idea that we are called Keepers of the Circle. To me it would say that a Keeper is the life blood of the Group, the main working force. While they don't have voting in the direct nitty gritty details, they would have say in broader guild-wide or Ring-wide matters. And there is of course nothing saying they can't bring to the attention of Wardens or even their Guardian matters of importance. (The whole importance of down and up method of communication in leadership).

The idea in my proposal of having everyone in a Ring with the same Circle rank is that it would allow each ring to set up it's own system of seniority and officership to suit the needs of the Ring. That way Rings like Steel and Light could have their own internal heirarchy, while others could be more of a loose partnership or collective.

Regarding the naming that was brought up, the idea is that Wardenship exists within the Rings. You are a Warden of Iron or a Warden of Wood, but everyone is a Keeper of the Circle.



All of these are (at least in my mind) the secondary aspects of my propsal though. The core of it, the part that is important to me, anyway, is the idea of one Ring per character. I've outlined my rationale for it both in my proposal, and in the Warden Status thread, but I want to make sure it isn't missed.

[clannagh]

Suggestion for addition to initiates proposal by Nymerias:

Initiate – New recruits that must be sponsored by a Keeper or Warden. Initiates take 3-7 days to become familiar with the organization and get to know the people. The Ring of Shadow also uses the time spent as an Initiate to clear the individual of espionage suspicion. When the Initiate feels ready, the sponsor requests induction into a Ring. All standing Wardens of the Ring vote to approve the new member. If the vote passes by a simple majority, the Initiate becomes a Keeper of that specific ring. Initiates do not have access to the resources and benefits of the Circle. This is an in-game rank to facilitate them being able to get to know the organization and its members fully.

Read more: www.keepersofthecircle.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=gd&action=display&thread=118#ixzz2JLNyBhuQ

Suggested addition:
To be eligible for induction Initiates must study for and pass a short answer test covering matters such as the basic purpose and structure of the Keepers and the basic nature of the various rings.

[WxCougar]

@dario. Thank you for the explanation of what you were going after for the one rank within the Ring itself. That does make sense.

In my own mind (which is often a scary place ), the sense of the two tier (Keeper then Warden) wouldn't really interfere with the Ring's flexibility to choose its own structure. Wardens would be considered "senior" or "excelled" members chosen by the members of the ring (in whatever method would be decided if this is the route we go). It could work in a loose structure just as well as a structured Ring. Be it they are considered "elders" or officers, in any case, anyone seeing a "Warden" would know that if they had a question they could go to them for answers regardless of which Ring they are in.

[Drake]

When it comes to Circle vs Ring, I think of the Circle as the US and a Ring as a State. That mixed with a form of Upper (Circle of Guardians) and Lower (Wardens) house.

So basicly, cross the US government with the UK government

[hark]

Jan 28, 2013 8:38:52 GMT -6 Dario Tashavan said:

The idea in my proposal of having everyone in a Ring with the same Circle rank is that it would allow each ring to set up it's own system of seniority and officership to suit the needs of the Ring. That way Rings like Steel and Light could have their own internal heirarchy, while others could be more of a loose partnership or collective.

It was my intent, and I think that of Nym and Erian as well that each ring be able to set up its own structure to suit its own needs. The Keeper/Warden distinction is to provide some context so each can relate to other rings and something of a command structure in the event of an emergency and you need someone to go to.

I expect that larger rings will develop greater level of detail in their rank structure with Senior and Junior Keepers and Wardens as is needed. Smaller Rings might just use the Rank of Keeper as a probationary period before everyone becomes a Warden until they have enough people that it loses the close personal aspect of a small ring and Keepers become a needed rank.

[Gintigael Gemweaver]

The idea of the Rings having their own ranking structure makes sense. But they should be kept separate from the Circle ranking structure. A Senior Keeper of Steel doesn't have any more rights than a Keeper of Wood, nor is a Junior Warden of Crystal worth less than a Warden of Shadow.

[hark]

That is why we don't define anything within a Ring other than Keeper, Warden, and Guardian. As far as the Circle is concerned those are the only ranks within each Ring.

[Dario Tashavan]

The problem with that, Hark, is that it forces the ring's internal structure to fit within the greater circle structure. Rings now must include at least two deliniations, and will have to figure out which side of this breakdown their own structures fall on. You've added a seam they now need to work around, where I don't think one particularly needs to exist.

If a ring wanted to opt for the "We are a collection of equals", then their options are to either elevate everyone to a position viewed by other rings as officership (Warden), or keep everyone at the more limited introductory level (Keeper). If you have different rates of advancement for Circle rank depending on your ring, then you have one that becomes the quick route to guild officership/seniority.

[WxCougar]

Perhaps I should ask the question of: does Wardenship = officer or does it mean an officer is a Warden but a Warden does not mean an officer?

[Dario Tashavan]

Well, as it seems to be presented in Nym/Hark/Erian's proposal, Warden is a senior rank, conferring if not acutal authority, at least a higher degree of respect, also including the voting privlidges that Keepers don't have.

[Gintigael Gemweaver]

Drake and Doomcrow’s proposals specifically uses the word ‘officer’ and gives the Warden greater voting rights than Keepers

Dario’s proposal, I believe, creates Wardens, not as officers, but as normal members who have greater voting rights.

The Tri-proposal (Taela, Hark and Erian) makes Wardens as a Senior member, but whether they are an officer or not depends on their Ring’s hierarchy.

Did I read your proposals correctly?

It seems like the voting rights are the same in all three proposals. Dario wants more people to be Wardens.
The Tri-proposal infers that the Rings get to decide who is a Warden, not the Circle as a whole (without saying it outright and leaving that to a future vote).

[Erian El'ranelen]

Yep, you've got the basics. I definitely support that each Ring has the authority to work out it's internal structure around the basic framework of the Circle. Throughout all, a Keeper is a Keeper and a Warden a Warden. I support this as a compromise between total independence for the Rings and consistency for the Circle. The Rings give up some freedom in structural decisions, while the Circle gives up direct control of structure beyond the basics. I would suggest that Rings utilizes some Wardens (not necessarily all) as officers and key personnel. General Ring support comes from Keepers--if they become worthy/ready/accepted as providing more than general support I would think the Ring would make such people Wardens.

[hark]

We intentionally left the definition of Warden somewhat ambiguous, again you give the flexibility each ring needs and the Circle as a whole needs to adjust to its changing needs.

That said I personally see Wardens as the lowest level of Officer in the Circle.

I personally come from a military background, if I ran the Ring of Steel I would at this point make Wardens the equivalent of Squad Leaders. As the Organization grew I might shift Squad Leader to a senior Keeper position and make Wardens serve in roles of Platoon Sargent/Platoon Leader and above positions.

The degree of mechanical support as an officer to a Warden will likely be contingent on what kind of control is offered to a Chartered Companys to establish officer positions and custom powers to said positions.

[Drake]

If it makes anyone feel better, I didn't vote for my own proposal