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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 5, 2013 7:33:37 GMT -6
So then point of clarification. Warden is a rank that anyone and everyone may attain, it isn't Ring specific and once you have it you have it forever. Warden's vote both Circle Wide and in the Rings they participate in. The elected positions that are being spoken of in the other thread are for positions higher than Warden.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 5, 2013 11:23:40 GMT -6
Ok, so I'm probably fighting uphill here, but I think we would be better served with Wardens belonging to one ring. If you have Wardens spread among rings, you've homogenized everything and rendered the nature of separate rings moot. At that point the only people actually dedicated to a ring are the Guardians (assuming they can't also maintain their Warden status in other rings, in which case it's even worse).
And at that point, what makes a Warden subject to a ring's strictures? If I set up a shop healing people, am I now bound by the Ring of Light's proscription against accepting payment? If I help guard a caravan because it's going the same way I am, do I now fall into the Ring of Steel's rank structure?
What I would advocate for is for Keepers to be general. They belong to the Circle at large. Should they desire a more direct say in the organization of things, they dedicate themselves to a Ring, making it their primary role in the society. This in no way precludes them from participating in other matters, but addresses the concerns of where you fall with the other rings. My examples above, setting up a shop for healing would not automatically put you under the Ring of Light, nor would accompanying a caravan subect you to the Ring of Steel. That said, you may have difficulty doing a competitive business with Light handing out free healing down the street, and the File Leader running the caravan guard may refuse to work with you again if you're contrary and difficult.
Additionally, this will make it easier for newer members/players to seek help in particular areas. If I see you're a Warden of Iron, I know that's your primary thing, and I can come to you for help with crafting, possibly even seek an apprenticeship. If I look around and everybody's in two, three, or even four rings, then it just becomes a general question to the group.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 5, 2013 11:29:28 GMT -6
I am with Dario on this one.
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 5, 2013 11:34:07 GMT -6
I like the way Dario has explained it. Very concise.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 5, 2013 12:10:50 GMT -6
I can see both sides of this. As a Warden I would assume there will be a certain level of dedication involved. Focusing in one area is easiest as you can then dedicate all your time to that area with the occasional workings in others. Should you become Warden of other rings, you are then starting to divide your attention and can't devote as much to one area as you have others to attend to as well. I could conceivably see being able to work at the Warden level of dedication in two groups, but beyond that I could see that becoming increasingly difficult.
I am personally open to anything, I'm just tossing more ideas out there that perhaps we could combine the two ideas and limit the number of rings a person can be a Warden in but allow for being in at the least two Rings? And then one could be a Keeper in any number of rings they want if they want to be in more than whatever number we decide.
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 5, 2013 15:03:59 GMT -6
I can get behind the one Ring per Warden idea. My main concern was/is direct voting rights in multiple rings - if I've worked hard and stayed active in Steel and Gold (to continue using myself as an example), I want to reap the benefits of that. But I can see the other side of it too - if Bob is a Warden of Steel and Gold and Iron and Wood and Light, then where is his priority? Do I go to him for those things, or someone else? How active is he in each?
Perhaps attaining Wardenship should be by Ring, instead of The Circle at large? If I have to be unanimously brought in (and sponsored) by a Warden of Steel and pass through that selection process, and again for Gold, that could make things a little more stringent. There's time and effort that have to be put in to pass that board, and you have to have everyone willing to accept you into that Ring's ranks - If I'm really, really active in Steel and only somewhat active in Gold, it would be harder for me to get that second Wardenship. That way, when you see characters that have multiple Wardenships, that screams "Experienced and Community Supported Player." I would expect, under this system, someone who has multiple Wardenships to be very knowledgeable.
You could put a soft cap on this by saying you can only become a Warden in one Ring per X months or one per year. That way, if someone is playing 30+ hours a week and is very active in multiple Rings, they can still end up with Direct votes in all of them - it just takes more time and they have to prioritize which ones to work hardest in.
I can still be convinced of one ring/warden, I'm just kinda iffy on locking them out of other rings' voting decisions.
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 5, 2013 15:04:35 GMT -6
Also, Lorhayden, that is precisely how the hierarchy was initially conceived.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 5, 2013 15:11:46 GMT -6
I'd still rather see one primary ring, but I could get behind the idea of separate, secondary inductions. Though I'd still like there to be a cap of maybe 2-3 rings per Warden, there's a limit to how much you can reasonably divide your attention.
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Post by Calhoun Farstrider on Jan 5, 2013 15:16:47 GMT -6
I see all points in this but here's an example of how I think it could work. I may be beating a dead horse though lol. I may even be repeating exactly what you all are thinking.
"John Doe" decides he wants to join our Circle. He loves our ways and structure but he knows not how he could best serve the guild. So Johnny decides to be a John-of-all-Trades for the moment, dabbling in pretty much everything. He eventually comes to find that he quite enjoys crafting items so he decides to start adding to his title "John Doe, Keeper of Iron". This is only to denote that he is a craftsman when he introduces himself to others.
So he goes on crafting and gathering material and while he's gathering material, he notices that he gets quite sidetracked by hunting when he is out gathering crafting materials. So he decides to start introducing himself as, "John, Keeper of Iron and Wood". Now when he introduces himself, people know that he is a craftsman and a wanderer.
Johnny boy starts busting his hump pretty hard. He's been with the guild for a while now and he's caught the attention of the Guardian of Iron. So the Guardian of Iron decides to nominate Johnny for the quarterly Warden elections. The Guardian of Wood thinks this is excellent. Johnny has definitely shown his value as a Keeper and the Guardian of Wood agrees that Johnny deserves to be a Warden. BUT there's no need for Johnny to be nominated twice and Johnny's focus is with the Ring of Iron anyway so the Guardian of Wood nominates a Keeper who is more active in their Ring.
Prior t the votes, The Guardian of Iron presents Johnny and his case telling the Inner Circle and the already elected Wardens why they believe that Johnny is a great candidate for Wardenship. The Inner Circle, as well as the already elected Wardens cast their votes and Johnny gets elected into the Wardens. A great honor in the Circle. As a Warden Johnny promises to be a role model to all Keepers. Not just to the Keepers of Iron, or the Keepers of Wood but all Keepers.
He continues on his way, doing exactly what he was before, but now Johnny has a bit more responsibility by settling minor disputes that probably don't need a Guardian to step in for; voting; and representing the elite of the Circle.
The End
Ta da! lmfao
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 5, 2013 15:25:51 GMT -6
@cal: Yes, all Wardens should be able to vote directly on Circle-wide matters. Guardians set the tone and direction for their Ring, but are subject to the votes of their own Ring members (currently, the Wardens will get a direct vote - but I think that the Keepers should be allowed to do a vote of no-confidence if the Guardian isn't serving their needs as well).
Guardians are your go-to person for grievances and issues within or with a specific Ring. If someone in Gold has consistently been breaking Contracts, I'd launch a complaint to their Guardian. If I'm not satisfied, I can kick up my complaint to the Watcher, who will deliberate with the Sentinel and others (the board that would decide appeals hasn't yet been discussed, but that belongs on another thread). Guardians can also initiate our equivalent of legislation for their Ring, but it must be confirmed by their Wardens as well.
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 5, 2013 15:29:02 GMT -6
@cal: Okay, you've convinced me. We only need one Ring/Wardenship.
I'd like to see some extraordinary characters holding multiple Wardenships, but that should be more difficult and I'm not opposed to a harder cap of 3 Wardenships - anyone pushing for a fourth (and well enough loved and active in all four Rings) can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I seriously doubt we will see much of that.
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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 5, 2013 16:33:29 GMT -6
Cool, Lorhayden (and you can call me Lor Warden of Shadow Keeper of Wood and Stone.
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Post by Leonidas Wahrheit on Jan 6, 2013 9:56:04 GMT -6
One Wardenship it is!
*Looks at name and rank. Smiles.*
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Post by Calhoun Farstrider on Jan 6, 2013 10:30:58 GMT -6
Right there with you Leo.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 6, 2013 10:35:50 GMT -6
I have to ask though, what is with the ** in your title? Is it a placeholder for presumed Guardian of Wood?
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