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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 16, 2013 17:46:05 GMT -6
I don't believe that what Hark is saying is at all unreasonable and am pretty sure that's what most of us kind of had in mind.
I think one of the things that scares people is the thought that you've got "bad" guys running around doing stuff. The Ring of Shadow will probably be the most controlled/structured Ring in the Circle with Steel a close second. Most active operations conducted by Shadow have to be sanctioned or targeted. The Guardian of Shadow will assign someone to go get some information, or infiltrate an organization, assassinate an opponent. These aren't things that each member just does on their own. In most of the other Rings people can move around and freely act without speaking to another member of their Ring about it at all. Shadow is not that way by the nature of our business we need to be cleared for our missions. The organization is much more MI-6 than Stazi.
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 16, 2013 17:59:09 GMT -6
All that is being asked is that, on the boards, that our Rings aren't a manditory descriptor so that those of us that are incognito can stay that way, right? It has nothing to do with people infiltrating the Ring of Wood because Nymerias is hiding her nuts from me... even though I know she is.
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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 16, 2013 18:18:20 GMT -6
Exactly! We are not here to gather information on other Ring members (she is TOTALLY stealing your nuts.)
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 16, 2013 18:53:06 GMT -6
Echoing Lorhayden. We are here to get outside info for the entire ring to benefit from or use for their protection.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 16, 2013 19:05:05 GMT -6
Whoa now, how did my name pop up in a thread I'm not even in!? And who spilled the beans about the nuts! Now I have to share...
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 16, 2013 22:58:33 GMT -6
With secret operations, secret membership, secret forums, how much really needs to be hidden before it becomes a separate group that just happens to contain members of the Circle? And again, you're still known as a member of the Circle, so you're not going to be infiltrating enemy organizations. The only people you can spy on like this is the Circle and it's allied settlements. That seems like a lot of negative for a minimal positive.
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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 17, 2013 4:48:07 GMT -6
Dario what is your fear or concern with Shadow? We will have enemies who will infiltrate the Circle. There will be groups who target our Caravans, our Harvesting Operations, our Members. What would you like us as a group to do in those situations, not know that we have contracts out on us? Not know that they are preparing to ambush our caravans or attack our settlement? We are not making Shadow for the heck of it, IRL countries have intelligence organizations for a reason. To gather information on its enemies so that they can be prepared for what is coming down the pipe. Those of us in Shadow are just as much Keepers as those in any other Ring. We adhere to the same principals and have the same goals. You might not like our methods but they are necessary for the protection of the rest of the Circle.
Your a member of Crystal, you have just discover the rarest spell in the game, someone sees you cast it and wants it. They go to a bakery and tell the baker (yes that's a reference to Tony's) all about how cool a spell it was and how awesome it would be if they had it. You log in to your character within our settlement in your home and are summarily killed, your spellbooks all stolen, your corpse looted. At that point what would you like to do? Say oh well guess I have to spend another year trying to find that spell again OR walk over to your friendly Warden of Shadow and say hey this just got stolen from me can you get it back? Wouldn't it be even better if you knew before hand that someone had targeted you and was coming after you to get your spellbook. That there was a group of people who then went to the person who offered the contract and informed them in no uncertain terms what a bad idea it would be for them to come after you and lo and behold you and your spell sleep happily at night.
You think there will not be PC organizations coming after what the Circle has and is working for? Look at the UnNamed Company, they are a multi-game guild who when this goes live will get strong quick. They get information on a trade shipment that we have going between our settlement and TEO. They prepare to hit our shipment, the big day comes, they've got a force of 25 people hidden along the road. Our caravan, guarded by ten Ring of Steel members, moves into the trap and is ambushed, our caravan looted the members of the Ring of Steel killed, there bodies looted of items they've worked for months to get. If we had infiltrated their organizations before hand, we could handle that in a number of different ways. (1) Warn them off before they take the contract to hit our shipment. (2) Beef up security so high on the shipment that its just not worth it for them to attack it. (3) Prepare a counter ambush. (4) Leave a note on the pillow of the leader of their organization letting him know what a good idea it would be for this shipment to go through.
As to the "Secrets." Every member of Crystal is not going to tell everyone else what spells they are researching, what items they are crafting. Every member of Wood/Earth will not post where their best harvesting nodes are. Steel will not make known the size and make up of our entire force. Every Ring will have forums that are not seen by the outside world.
We are 8 Rings combined in purpose (maybe you can see what insignia I'm going for.) If you have a strong fear of us turning into an evil organization that join us and keep us on the straight and narrow.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 17, 2013 8:24:59 GMT -6
My problem is that a use case was outlined. A methodology was outlined. The methodology does not enable the use case.
Use case: Infiltrate enemy organizations to uncover and counter threats
Methodology: Mask Ring of Shadow involvement by emulating another Ring
Fault: Hiding yourself in another Ring does not in any way hide affiliation with the Circle. You will only have access to things members of the Circle have access to. It is extremely unlikely you will get a job as a breadmaker if they know you're in the Circle, a good-aligned organization.
Your methodology is an attache program, wherein covert collectors are embedded in another organization, typically an embassy or other diplomatic program, to conduct surveillance against friendly or neutral targets. Your use case, as outlined, is more in the vein of clandestine operations carried out by agents with little, preferably no, discernable ties to the organization.
I've spent the better part of my adult life working in intel. I know the value of collections, and the danger of espionage. But when your use case does not match your justification, it becomes secrecy for secrecy's sake. We call that overclassification and stovepiping, and it undermines everything. I fully support the organization conducting clandestine collections, provided they're handled properly. I don't believe this is so.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 17, 2013 9:13:28 GMT -6
So what, you're putting the kibosh on having a Spy division in the Ring of Shadow?
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 17, 2013 9:14:55 GMT -6
No. I don't have that authority, and wouldn't do it even if I did. I'm saying that I don't think this is the way to have one.
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Post by Karter Darven on Jan 17, 2013 9:24:55 GMT -6
The Ring of Shadow will be working with other Rings very closely, whether you're a keeper in another ring or not. Our purpose is to be the dagger held from sight, people will know about us but they will not know us. The board for Shadow will become hidden eventually once I can find the right set of button clicks to allow this to happen. Shadow will, for lack of better terms, be ALMOST like it's own group but we will be a very important part of the Guild as a whole. There will be a spy division, as there will be a thief and a assassin division. All will be explained when the Doctrine is released
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 17, 2013 9:32:10 GMT -6
I'd be more on board for Shadow members acting as counter-Intel with Alts/burn accounts set up for managing covered espionage. Assuming there's some way not to give away your affiliation in-game (while maintaining some of the benefits via more visible members of Shadow), keeping that much in the way of secrets on the boards may not be necessary. Should some of the information be compartmentalized? Sure, absolutely. Should all of the existence of Shadow be hidden? Maybe, maybe not.
Maybe the best solution is to have pure Shadow members not affiliate directly with the Circle, or for us to recruit agents in other groups. Dario probably has more clear ideas on this. I've got some book learning and spoon feeding, but no real-world application. Most of my knowledge is WWII and earlier when covert operations were much, much simpler. Damn technology.
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Post by Karter Darven on Jan 17, 2013 9:40:53 GMT -6
I don't plan on hiding all of it, I'm hoping to leave the General board open to the Guild so people can post stuff.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 17, 2013 10:27:04 GMT -6
As one option to ensure trust, I advocate the Guardians of all Rings being able to see everything Shadow is doing, save things that involve suspect Guardians (only the Sentinel and Watcher see those). Would there be any reason to hide Shadow's overall actions from the Guardians, considering the Guardians need to ensure their members are operating in a way that supports Shadow?
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 17, 2013 10:31:53 GMT -6
I think the Inner Circle should have insight into the operations all rings are running, not just Shadow. I think it's just as important to know that Steel is planning a suprise strike on a den of bandits, or that Gold is planning to flood a neighboring market as it is to know that Shadow has operatives in place within a group. That would fall under the duties of a Guardian of a Ring to keep the rest of the Circle-level leadership appraised what is going on.
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