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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 17, 2013 10:33:59 GMT -6
I agree, the Inner Circle should have access to the business of all the Ring. Checks and balances, right?
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 10:35:24 GMT -6
I also agree with this.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 17, 2013 10:39:33 GMT -6
Though I'm not a Guardian, or a member of Shadow, this topic is heated enough to warrant that I might be able to add two cents.
We appear to be letting people certainly be Keeper level in multiple Rings. I support that. So I don't see anything wrong if a Shadow member introduces themselves to someone outside the Circle as a Keeper of Wood. Internally we should be able to know them as a Shadow member. If a new member arrives, and no one is labeled Shadow, they are still going to know that the Shadow Ring exists, and can just start suspecting everyone and eventually they are likely to figure it out.
I agree with Erian that the Guardians should be trusted enough to have access to all shadow boards. I do not think I should have access to all of them.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 17, 2013 10:46:30 GMT -6
Knowing the business of a Ring whose nature is to be out in the open is one thing; knowing the business of a Ring whose nature is to be hidden is another. Someone outside the Ring of Shadow compromising an agent's status and thus ruining their experience because they let something slip all in the name of full disclosure seems to nullify the point of having a covert Ring. This doesn't just apply to Spies. Having thieves outed makes their traveling in other areas a lot tougher and makes their job infinitely harder to accomplish.
What happens when an Assassination target gets wind that he needs to watch his back? Or that a person isn't that shopkeeper or miner you thought he was but the guy that gets tapped to put people down in secret when people transgress against us or our allies?
If Guardians know, their officers will know, and eventually more people are going to know. Being in Intelligence for so long, you should know that the more people you include at the table, the larger the risk of scraps falling off and getting snatched up. Meaning, the more people included on sensitive material, the higher the OPSEC risk that someone not as familiar with guarding information is going to let something slip that they shouldn't have.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 17, 2013 10:51:24 GMT -6
While it is true that expanding the number of people "in the know" on operations introduces risk, it is also a necessary means of ensuring trust. We are not, as with other groups, specifically focused on covert operations. Given the non-aggressive nature of the Circle, I would expect that the truly covert actions--assassination, sabotage. etc.--would be so rarely used as to not present near as much an issue as it might for less Good organizations.
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Post by Karter Darven on Jan 17, 2013 13:16:18 GMT -6
Shadow's existence is because of the covert. Guardians of other rings really don't need to be alerted to everything Shadow is doing, just like how Shadow doesn't need to be told everything they're doing. Unless it calls for working directly with another Ring.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 13:25:36 GMT -6
The more I think of this and hear what people say, the more I'm starting to understand the concern and realize that the scenario will likely be very rare. The truly undercover agent, infiltration part is very likely not going to be something we have to worry about. It's a possibility in the extreme case if it is decided upon by the Inner Circle, but is not going to be a major role in Shadow. More than likely it'll just be sneak in, look around and sneak out without being noticed in enemy territory. I know I wouldn't mind hearing tips on how best to accomplish stuff like this from those who have a knowledge base in it. As to labeling as Shadow. It may help to know how we will be labeled in the game setting before we can really determine what we need to do to help protect everyone both in Shadow and in the Circle as a whole. As to who should know what the particular Shadow member is doing - I agree with the concern of too many "in the know" but I also think its a necessary risk to have all the Guardians be in the know. It goes with the whole checks and balances conversation going on elsewhere. Or perhaps I should say I agree with Erian's post. But the exact details may only be known to the Guardian of Shadow, Watcher and Sentinel.
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Post by Leonidas Wahrheit on Jan 17, 2013 15:42:58 GMT -6
Shadow's existence is because of the covert. Guardians of other rings really don't need to be alerted to everything Shadow is doing, just like how Shadow doesn't need to be told everything they're doing. Unless it calls for working directly with another Ring. This I understand, Karter, but I can guarantee you that if there's an agent working within the Ring of Light and potentially endangering some of its members, I would sure hope the Guardian of the Ring of Light, as well as the Sentinel, knows about what's going on and should approve of these actions. As both myself and Erian have mentioned before, we absolutely need checks and balances. After all, if you have no Light, no Iron, no Earth, no Wood, no Crystal, no Gold, and no Steel, what then can cast a Shadow? Dario also made a solid point earlier on and his experience with some intelligence work should absolutely be heeded. This is an intensely hot-button issue. I only hope we can come to a resolution about how to handle these proceedings.
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 17, 2013 15:48:35 GMT -6
Think of it as clearance levels. Keepers have Public Trust, Wardens have Secret, Guardians have TS. They may or may not be cleared on specific ops, but for the most part I think they would be. Plausible deniability is nice, but with our focus being non-aggressive non-interfering, those times will be very rare and can be handled case by case at the discretion of the Sentinel, Watcher, and Guardian of Shadow. The truly black ops should never be on the boards at all, but in PMs/voice chats/chatgroups of those with need to know. The only cases I can think about that would fit this requirement would be internal house cleaning (which would require, at minimum, the knowledge of the Sentinel, Watcher, Guardian of Shadow, and the Guardian whose member is under suspicion) and deep cover spies. Other than that, Inner Circle should be privy to most everything, I think - if nothing else, they're our equivalent of the Intelligence Committee. I don't see there being much need for external actions being hidden internally; many of those ops will be stealing back equipment, harrying the enemy, sowing discord, etc - all things we expect to be doing in a time of war - Shadow seems like most of their work will be counter-intel which needs to be clandestine rather than covert. Dario will have better grasp and I could well be mistaken. Deep cover spying should be both covert and clandestine, assassinations are covert, counter-intel ops would preferably remain clandestine, imo.
Covert - the actor behind the action is unknown/maintains plausible deniability. Clandestine - the action itself remains unknown and unnoticed by the general population.
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Post by hark on Jan 17, 2013 15:49:17 GMT -6
Whatever we do we need to get it right from the start otherwise pretty much everyone in the Ring of Shadows is going to become pretty much useless for covert work. Rebuilding an effective Ring of Shadows later on would be a massive undertaking.
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Post by Karter Darven on Jan 17, 2013 19:09:56 GMT -6
s'why we started planning it now
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 17, 2013 19:34:53 GMT -6
I'm starting to come around. Make as many secret ops as you want. If you fail and get caught we have deniability, but there will be no retrieval missions for your corpse, and no back-up from the rest of the guild. You want to do it on your own, you're on your own.
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Post by Bristol Glory on Jan 17, 2013 19:42:40 GMT -6
Reading through, I can see what you want to accomplish with this Ring. It can be done, just not very simply. A good example of online rp/combat espionage is something I saw in the Second Life military scene. To gather intel on an opposing organization and, potentially, sabotage it from within, one had to create an alternate account, verify it with the game developers (so it didn't look like a bot or griefing throwaway), then spend some time around the right people, and join up with the 'bad guys.' This involved letting the account age some, since account creation dates are public information in Second Life.
For PFO, this would translate as alt. characters - something we know GW is going to allow per-account. Assuming each character cannot be publicly traced back to its 'host' account, one could create a new character for the purposes of espionage, spend some time leveling them, making friends, and spending time in the right circles, then eventually infiltrate the target organization. This, by necessity of game mechanics, means that character cannot in any way ever be seen to associate with the KotC.
In regards to internal operations, we have to be careful not to create a 'shadow agency' within our own Guild. Obviously, for the sake of keeping our 'offensive' operations secret, we can't allow everything about the ring of shadow to be public. However, it can't be so opaque that our own members don't know anything about the ring. Karter said it well. "They will know about us, but they will not know us." The knowledge that our guild has within it an organization for the purposes of espionage, investigation, and even assassination is not sensitive information. If anything, it's expected.
That said, knowing Chunk Bouldersmash is a member of the Ring of Shadow isn't necessarily sensitive, either. I highly doubt the guild system in PFO will be so detailed as to show specific divisions within a guild. If anything, I expect Rank to be something we can divide up, and perhaps individual titles. (IE: Guardian, Warden, etc.) Rings will be primarily internal information from the start.
As far as operations secrecy goes, that is also something to be careful with. Obviously, every ring doesn't need to be in on everything every other ring does. The beauty of what we're setting up here is that the group will function as a whole just as well as it does in its separate parts. The ring of steel may request trade for a particular piece of equipment, but if the ring of wood makes a similar request, the ring of light doesn't have to be notified. So, in regards to clandestine operations, the ring of shadow would not be expected to be out in the open to everyone about what's going on. That would, ideally, be planned and discussed in a private, hidden, or otherwise restricted forum accessible only by - in my opinion - the Guardians, Sentinel, and Watcher.
The individual rings as a whole may not need to be in on a spy mission, or who is operating what burn-character for what reason, but that kind of activity should be open to the 'higher authorities' in every ring. Spying on another entity is big. It's an important decision that should involve more than the Watcher/Sentinel and the ring of shadow's head. The other Guardian positions are not easily-compromised, and I believe operating a ring of shadow in this way toes a very thin line between over-separating itself from the rest of the group, if even the 'leaders' of that group's other parts are completely in the dark. (Haha, puns.)
Sorry, I kind of rambled a bit, but I think I was able to crystallize all my thoughts on the matter.
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 17, 2013 19:49:32 GMT -6
He doesn't speak much, but when he does out spews much wisdom. ;D Yay Bristol!
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 19:52:16 GMT -6
A lot more eloquently than I could put it. I agree with that.
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