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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 12:32:40 GMT -6
That was a draft document, Hark. It has changed. That is true, but the changes were never posted anywhere in a condensed form. Unless I'm completely mistaken and they were. They were also never finalized and were constantly being debated. Unless I missed something there too. If a new person were to join the conversation today they would be expressing their thoughts based on what Hark linked. That is why I am suggesting that we set a deadline for formal proposals to be submitted. Create a thread for all of them to be posted to without discussion of them (create a separate thread for debating the various points). Then after a portion of time has elapsed so that we think all members have had a chance to review the proposals and debates we hold a vote.
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Post by hark on Jan 15, 2013 12:35:37 GMT -6
That was a draft document, Hark. It has changed. Those are very good and clear details though, why change them? Hark, I feel like what you are saying is in line with what I am saying. Can you point out where we differ? I also did not mean to include voting power to Initiates at any level, if I did so I need to edit my proposal. Initiates shouldn't be able to vote on anything nor should they be able to sponsor. If they have a friend they want to join they can introduce them to a Keeper or Warden and then it is up to them to do the sponsoring. Yeah I got the impression you wanted Initiates to be able to vote on stuff that was open to the general Population. I think the only real difference between us maybe how much we feel an Initiate must go through to become a keeper. I personally would like to actually eventually have it set up such that a weekly class in held for initiates explaining the details of the Organization. Completion of this class being one of the mandatory requirements of becoming a Keeper. I also feel that each Ring should reserve the right to set up any additional requirements for Keeper status that it wants. For Example the Ring of Steel might have a mandatory combat training course that Initiates must go through to become a Keeper of the Ring of Steel, kind of like army basic training.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 12:43:01 GMT -6
I modified my posts to make it clear that I am suggesting Initiates have zero voting privileges.
A class is an interesting proposal, but I would want to table it until we have a set understanding of what the levels need to be first.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 15, 2013 12:44:30 GMT -6
A deadline for proposals, then a vote looks good to me. With the confirmations tomorrow, would a deadline of Friday work for proposals? How long do we allow for voting? Is this to cover all aspects of the Circle charter, just member positions, etc.?
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 12:47:16 GMT -6
A deadline for proposals, then a vote looks good to me. With the confirmations tomorrow, would a deadline of Friday work for proposals? How long do we allow for voting? Is this to cover all aspects of the Circle charter, just member positions, etc.? I'm going to suggest we give through Monday of next week to allow the weekend for people to put everything together. Then I would say a week as a poll for people to give it due consideration and to allow our less frequent members a chance to read it.
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Post by hark on Jan 15, 2013 12:47:34 GMT -6
I modified my posts to make it clear that I am suggesting Initiates have zero voting privileges. A class is an interesting proposal, but I would want to table it until we have a set understanding of what the levels need to be first. Oh yeah, no doubt about it. I don't know that I would even hold the class until we had a place to hold it in game. At this point it is a very long term idea.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 12:50:21 GMT -6
I proposed to Dario a deadline of submissions as a week from tomorrow. At which point we would close the thread for submissions and the vote would be a few days later.
I am suggesting a 2 thread system, one strictly for formal proposals, and a second for the discussion and debate of those proposals. I don't think people should have to swim through debate to find proposals. I also think people should be able to read proposals and form their own thoughts before they read the debating messages.
So I suggest we create these two threads. The submission thread will be locked on the 23rd. The polls will open on the 25th?
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 12:52:50 GMT -6
I think that's a good idea, Nym. A submissions thread and a discussion thread. Monday deadline would mean locking the Submissions on the 21st. Voting should open immediately once the thread is locked and run for one week.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 15, 2013 12:53:11 GMT -6
I certainly agree that there should be two separate boards for the proposals and discussion. (I also am fine with the proposed idea of deadline and so forth. )
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 12:53:25 GMT -6
I was suggesting a period between submissions being locked and a poll opening so that people can discuss all proposals before voting. If I don't submit something until the deadline I would want to make sure it got debated and fixed before people voted on it.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 15, 2013 12:55:35 GMT -6
That was part of why I suggested a week long voting period. I would rather not see proposals "fixed" except for clarity once the submission period is over. They shouldn't change after people read them.
A day or two between closing and voting isn't an issue, though. I'd be fine with that.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 15, 2013 12:57:16 GMT -6
Before we finalize anything I would like to wait for a few more of the likely to be Inner Circle members to have a chance to catch up with all that was discussed this morning and weigh in on submissions, deadlines, and voting etc.
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Post by Lorhayden on Jan 15, 2013 18:50:38 GMT -6
Wow this thread re-exploded. I think that a time between locking the thread and voting is a good idea. It will allow us time to think over the proposals, debate them and then call for a final vote on date X. As I have stated in this thread and others I also fully support an Initiate level similar to what both Nym and Erian have stated, a non-voting member who is getting to know and understand the circle. This initiate phase would last a relatively short period of time 3-7 days maybe two weeks and then the person would be promoted to Keeper based upon the recommendations of those they had played with.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 16, 2013 1:43:42 GMT -6
Things have been busy over the last week and I've only just had today to settle down and begin to look over everything, this thread being one of them.
I view our Organization much like Nym describes. You have the top leadership, with the Inner Circle below them. Each member of the Inner Circle has their own sub-domains (Rings) which they run with their Lieutenants (Wardens). The rest of the groups is made up of the regular members (Keepers), and your pledges (initiates) who aren't members yet. They haven't been given access to all the secrets yet, they don't know where the hidden things are yet, or have access to special items/weapons, or get discounts at the shops, or whatever perks there may be until they either prove themselves or until a Member vouches for them and becomes their sponsor.
I think there should be a period of time during this sponsorship where the Initiate shadows their Sponsor and is taught the main principles of the Circle and learns about each Ring. When the Initiate is ready and the Sponsor has approved after this period of time has concluded, they are inducted into the Circle by rite.
I really think that we are in a position to become more than just a group of people who want to start a town and eventually a kingdom. I think we can become a force in the region, with networks all over the River Kingdoms, based in our home village where we network with and support our friends and neighbors and provide the people with an Organization much like the Harpers of old Forgotten Realms. A group that doesn't go around causing trouble but one that defends the weak, quells conflict and maintains balance in our areas of influence. If we are to become something great like that we most assuredly should have a hierarchy that resembles that of a Secret Society or Druidic Circle, one which I think Nym lays out very well.
I also agree on the gateway rank vs enemy infiltration because let's face it, there are going to be a lot of bad guys out there and the smart ones will be trying to get their hooks into as many societies as possible as early as possible. Just look at EVE, a game where these Devs came from, to see how much devastation spies can wreak, but imagine it in a place where you have towns and villages and cities and how much destruction and loss something like a high-level infiltration can bring. We need to have a pledge-like rank.
I say a two-week "trial period" as an Initiate, after which we decide whether the Initiate become a Keeper or be turned from the Circle. Sponsor feedback would have a big (but not total) impact on the decision making process.
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Post by Hroderich Gottfrei on Jan 16, 2013 8:56:37 GMT -6
Finally catching up everyone, sorry for the delay.
I'm coming into favor of an initiate rank, where you would need a Warden or Keeper to Sponsor you in order to become a full Keeper. An Initiate would have no voting rights and none of the benefits for being a Keeper.
Once sponsored and accepted, an Initiate goes through some minor questing in order to get their Ring and becomes a full Keeper. Now that he or she is a Keeper, (s)he participates in guild events, has access to all Keeper bonuses, may make votes of No Confidence for officers in his or her Ring, and has visibility and verbal input on decision making (but not a direct vote). If a Keeper is sponsored by three other Keepers (or one Warden), he or she may stand for induction into the Warden ranks.
If confirmed as a Warden (by whatever mechanic we agree on, Unanimous Vote was the original), the player then may stand for further elections in his or her Ring, have Direct votes on his/her Ring's matters as well as Circle Wide issues, and still maintains the power to call a vote of no confidence in Elected Officers.
I do think that the trial period for Initiates should be closer to 3-6 days. Perhaps we should have a member of Shadow investigate/follow them around (along with their Sponsor) to try and keep an eye out for spies. The biggest problem I foresee is sleeper agents. That's going to be hellishly hard to defend against.
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