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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 16, 2013 9:22:26 GMT -6
So what, then, differentiates an Initiate from someone who's applied to the group but not yet been accepted? It sounds to me like an "Ok, we acknowledge you've applied."
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 16, 2013 9:32:28 GMT -6
Someone who's applied to the group but not yet been accepted is exactly what an Initiate is in my mind (as Webster would say "a person who is undergoing or has undergone an initiation"). It's just easier to say "Initiate." Once you pass the initiation, you are inducted into the Circle as a Keeper.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 16, 2013 9:38:00 GMT -6
So we would have a guild rank for people not in the guild? That sounds more like the application process. You submit an application, wait X amount of time, undergo review, and then join the guild.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 16, 2013 9:42:07 GMT -6
I'm not sure people are proposing it to be be a technical rank within the guild. It's more of a title to show that this person is interested and therefore an "Initiate of the Keepers" but they are not technically members. It's kind of like a pledge to a fraternity/sorority from what I'm thinking (only without the crazy requirements ).
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 16, 2013 9:43:07 GMT -6
So, an Initiate is not a part of the Guild, it is a process of becoming a member of the guild. This I can get behind. I like Hrod's fleshing out of the descriptions. I'm curious who's going to hold these classes that are proposed. It sounds like we're building a bureauocracy that no one is going to want to run. Running classes for novitiates doesn't sound interesting to me, nor does it fit every Ring. What kind of classes is the Ring of Earth going to provide? This is how you set up a harvesting camp? Most likely people that want to join (unless they're a newbie) already know how to do this and the game will have tutorials. And a 'class' of someone spouting our philosophy at them sounds boring for all concerned. And if we hold 'classes' on our tactics for people that aren't in our guild yet all we are doing is giving possible spies easier ways to learn our tactics without even joining our Guild.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 16, 2013 9:44:32 GMT -6
Yes, absolutely. And we call those folks Initiates. They are distinct from general PFO players in that they are being considered for the Circle, but are not members yet and so have no rights or privileges beyond being escorted around by Keepers/Wardens to learn the ropes.
For classes, I don't see that working too well really. We'd have better results with the mentor/apprentice type of set up where more senior members bring up newer folks through actual action.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 16, 2013 10:09:40 GMT -6
Hrod, we can discuss this more when we open up the proposal and discussion threads, but why no direct vote for Keepers? In your initial introduction (which I know was/is a draft) you talk about Warden's having the ability to make top-level votes. Since you don't mention the voting rights of Keepers at all, you imply that they could have a vote, just on low-level things.
I've been trying to think of good examples of what could be low-level or top level. A top level decision could be something like when the Ring of Shadow presents the Inner Circle of a ring of player bandits robbing people in our hex, the Shadow has found out they aren't just bandits, but sanctioned from a nearby settlement. The decision of what we should do, i.e. go to war, attempt negotiations, assassinate the leader as a warning, etc. would be something that only Wardens and above should have the initial vote on.
A low-level vote could just relate to everyday functions or advancement of the settlement. We will have to put time and resources into advancing our settlement by building new buildings or upgrading existing ones. We could often put it to a vote to see what the general population of the settlement thinks would be the most advantageous. If we are going to consider changing a taxation policy at any point (I apologize that I am not fully up to speed on that thread so correct me if I say something wrong) I would think that Keepers should have a direct vote in that.
When it comes to internal Ring matters, who can vote on what could be left up to each individual Ring, though the suggested model would be to have only Wardens vote on most things. For example, if Gold is trying to decide how to set prices for their merchandise Keepers can give input, but the final decision needs to be made by the Wardens. The idea there is that they have been proven and dedicated and we hope to trust them to really know what they are doing. An Initiate would be left out of the pricing conversations altogether, the chance of them just being here to report our prices immediately to someone else who could then saturate the market with an undercut price.
It isn't apart of my proposal cause it is a detail that can be added in later, but I really love the idea of the small quest to forge your Ring. I would even say we should all do the same rite on our characters as soon as we can in EE. I also think a 3-6 day trial is a good time frame. Shadow could always ask to extend it if they have suspicions that aren't confirmed yet.
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 16, 2013 10:17:20 GMT -6
I'm almost swayed my Nymerias's argument, especially if your Wardenship only extends to one Ring. But that would only matter if we are split by Rings. Am I a Warden of Iron, or am I a Warden? Does my Wardenship matter when it comes to the Ring of Shadow?
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 16, 2013 10:24:41 GMT -6
In my mind, you are a Warden of Iron and the Circle. So if something was being voted on by the Wardens of Shadow, you actually would not likely know something is going down. So lets use Wood instead. You might hear through the grapevine that the Wardens of Wood are voting on how to divide a new hex for patrols, harvesting, etc. (I'm not exactly sure what we would be voting on). As a Warden of Iron you might hear about it, you might really want some more deer hides to work with, and you might be really good friends with a couple Wood Wardens. You can by all means say "Hey, we really need more deer hides, you should really take that into consideration when voting," but you will not have a direct vote in their matter.
When it comes to something that effects the Circle as a whole, be it taxation, war, or if we should outlaw all forms of alcohol in our settlement then you as a Warden of Iron vote as a Warden. The Iron part, or any Keeper titles you have in another ring (if we do that, TBD) doesn't matter.
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Post by Gintigael Gemweaver on Jan 16, 2013 10:29:15 GMT -6
This I can agree with. But if I want more deer hides I'll just make a contract for deer hides and someone will get em for me and take my money
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 16, 2013 10:46:15 GMT -6
In my mind, you are a Warden of Iron and the Circle. So if something was being voted on by the Wardens of Shadow, you actually would not likely know something is going down. So lets use Wood instead. You might hear through the grapevine that the Wardens of Wood are voting on how to divide a new hex for patrols, harvesting, etc. (I'm not exactly sure what we would be voting on). As a Warden of Iron you might hear about it, you might really want some more deer hides to work with, and you might be really good friends with a couple Wood Wardens. You can by all means say "Hey, we really need more deer hides, you should really take that into consideration when voting," but you will not have a direct vote in their matter. When it comes to something that effects the Circle as a whole, be it taxation, war, or if we should outlaw all forms of alcohol in our settlement then you as a Warden of Iron vote as a Warden. The Iron part, or any Keeper titles you have in another ring (if we do that, TBD) doesn't matter. This is pretty much exactly what I had in mind when I'd suggested the one Ring per Warden. You have your principle focus area, and a direct say in what occurs there. In secondary areas you may be interested in, you have a voice, but no direct control. And all Wardens would have direct input into Circle-wide affairs.
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Post by Erian El'ranelen on Jan 16, 2013 11:06:20 GMT -6
I'm in the one Ring per Warden camp as well. Keepers in multiple Rings, Wardens and Guardians in one, Sentinel and Watcher in all.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 16, 2013 11:46:31 GMT -6
Thankfully, I believe we'll be able to use magic to help us in this endeavor.
If it's in-game, I suggest the use of spells such as Detect Alignment or Protection from Evil (might show a debuff on the target?) to help us find the evil (and obvious) spies/sleeper agents. I'm sure they'll use Neutral ones against us, but that would help us a little bit. I doubt spells like Detect Lies or Zone of Truth would be in-game because you can't control what a player says in game.
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Post by Dario Tashavan on Jan 16, 2013 11:49:50 GMT -6
The problem, doom, is really with people who create an alt specifically for infiltration. They'll be lawful good while the player gathers information and takes it over to their evil alt and it's allies. Nothing in-game is going to be able to stop that. The only things that will help us with that are guild vigilence, OPSEC, and some basic security protocols (eg. compartmentalization).
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 16, 2013 11:55:57 GMT -6
Dario is right. Some people will be terribly dedicated to it too. For all you guys know at this point, I could have always been truly loyal to Shadow Haven and am here on long-term cover so they can have a heads-up on you guys as soon as EE hits.
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