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Post by Drake on Jan 17, 2013 11:37:05 GMT -6
Yes, Keeper voting is still being debated. For now I don't think it makes a difference because I don't think we have anyone who is below Warden Rank atm.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 17, 2013 11:38:11 GMT -6
I think leaving things as they are and having elections later down the line is a mistake. To elect someone to a position where their authority/powers and limitations aren't even defined opens things up for trouble down the line. For one, those positions would have blanket authority whatever they say they have authority over, and a lot of overstepping and abuse of power can occur.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 11:42:21 GMT -6
doomcrow: That is a good point. And that would indicate that we need to get the duties/responsibilities as well as the checks & balances in place first from Sentinel down to Keeper before we go into elections.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 17, 2013 11:50:39 GMT -6
I feel like you have a very valid argument Doomcrow. Yet, I feel like we should move forward. The many of the people whose names are on that list have already proven many times over that they are open minded leaders. I have many examples of Calhoun encouraging us to edit his plans, make our own tweeks, discuss things as a group. He has repeatedly said things like it is OUR Ring and OUR Circle and we should all build it together. I feel these people have taken the idea of Crowdforging to heart and are applying it to the building of this group. If the conversation of check and balances had never come up before, I would share your concern about abuse of power. Yet it has come up before. It is certainly on the minds of the people on the list for leadership positions. While I cannot speak for them, I believe that they will be the first ones to advocate for checking and balancing themselves.
We need to get a lot of things hammered down. I just feel like having a leadership group in place will allow for the hammering to occur in a more organized fashion. I think it is certainly the duty of people like you and me to watch for abuse of power and call it out when we see it. We have already discussed mechanisms for votes of no confidence. We already have a structure where the Guardians out number the Watcher and Sentinel which serves as a crude check and balance system until more can be agreed upon.
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Post by chaiguy on Jan 17, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -6
Chaiguy, that is still currently up for debate. Though I am advocating for it, as it currently stands it had been talked about as Keepers are non-voting members. Which is why I will suggest in this thread too we move forward with the structure charter proposals and discussion threads. That's true, I just wanted to let people know that it's something that's being discussed. It's hard to follow what's going on here at times.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 17, 2013 12:15:05 GMT -6
What's the rush? We have a long time before this game becomes playable, so shouldn't we do this right? The person nominated for Sentinel hasn't posted in a week and has hardly been seen at all here, sick or not he said he was "up to speed" a week ago.
If we want to build something that's going to last, then we need to build from the ground up. If we move forward there will be so many holes to plug the ship will start taking on too much water and it'll be hard having to backtrack and make adjustments in hindsight to bad decisions.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 12:15:30 GMT -6
chaiguy. Agreed. The discussions have been wonderful, but they are a bit scattered through other boards and intermixed. Perhaps it would be a good idea to get a board dedicated to each topic (and many already have been done thanks to the initiate of others) and get all the current discussion summarized and placed onto those boards for further discussion? I'm also wondering if we shouldn't try to line up some voice meeting soonish to help hammer out details? I realize that getting people together at the same time is difficult, and am personally fine with boards or voice, whichever the group decides. But the information already presented should at the least be compiled and placed into the appropriate areas for ease of finding it.
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Post by doomcrow on Jan 17, 2013 12:17:39 GMT -6
@ Cougar, I posted about offering my Mumble server (which is a voice chat program for those of you who are unaware of the Mumble program) to use in the interim until something more permanent is figured out, but haven't gotten any response yet to take me up on the offer.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 17, 2013 12:22:41 GMT -6
You are right Doomcrow, there is a large void of time. But I feel like we are starting to chase our own tails in various discussions and we need to lay things out in an organized and formal manner.
Part of the rush is that we have new people trickling in all of the time. A lot of stuff is unsettled and just keeping talking about "as things currently stand" becomes tedious. I feel like we would benefit from an establish base of a charter that we work to ratify as a group now. I would like everyone in the group to be able to confidently say what the official current state of things is. As it is now every time someone mentions being in multiple rings, Keepers voting, the word initiate, etc. we get multiple people quoting very different things for what they consider to be the way things currently stand.
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Post by WxCougar on Jan 17, 2013 12:24:55 GMT -6
doomcrow: I'd be certainly for it, assuming its relatively easy for those of us not used to using such programs. And as far as "soonish", I figure we can set some sort of time that works for everyone. We aren't in a terrible hurry since the game is still a ways out, but I do agree that we really need to at least hammer the basics out for our command structure sooner than later. Otherwise as more and more people join - things will get very complicated very quickly. Edit: @nym. You are fast in your replies .
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Post by Bristol Glory on Jan 17, 2013 14:26:48 GMT -6
What's the rush? We have a long time before this game becomes playable, so shouldn't we do this right? The person nominated for Sentinel hasn't posted in a week and has hardly been seen at all here, sick or not he said he was "up to speed" a week ago. If we want to build something that's going to last, then we need to build from the ground up. If we move forward there will be so many holes to plug the ship will start taking on too much water and it'll be hard having to backtrack and make adjustments in hindsight to bad decisions. I never intended to be the source of any kind of ill will or conflict, only responded when a relatively small group of people asked if I would be interested in trying something. It's apparent that I don't have the outspoken capabilities this group is going to need. Consider my name withdrawn. To clarify, since we aren't voting (hopefully) until these positions have a clear and well-defined goal, I don't think any names should be 'put up' for them. When the time comes to vote, if we hold nominations, people can be nominated. If we have volunteers step up to be considered, we can do so then. I don't want to be considered for a position that doesn't technically exist yet.
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Post by Rufus on Jan 19, 2013 2:07:59 GMT -6
Hmm not sure we have agreed either position, just discussed it. Maybe we need a vote on whether we want a vote? And then a vote on whether we should have a vote on having a vote...
Ruf
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Post by kvalandur on Jan 19, 2013 20:23:25 GMT -6
Any chance we could get a section of the forum that's open to members only? I think it'll be needed especially as we will have emissaries and visitors from other guilds often on our forums? Just a thought.
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Post by shadowmyst on Jan 21, 2013 5:10:37 GMT -6
In all honesty I think all the voting and positions have been done very prematurely. Positions seem to be given mainly by who knows who, which is very common in the beginning. I am very happy with Calhoun Farstrider being my Gaurdian though. I like the way he is currently running things there. My suggestion would be to make all these position interim untill all the rolls, duties and responsibilities have been established and we are closer to EE. I will be submitting my suggestion for hierchy later this week.
Again this is only my opinion and sugestion and will of course relent to the will of the Guild leader.
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Post by Nymerias on Jan 21, 2013 8:37:55 GMT -6
I feel it isn't as much of "who knows who" as is it "who had the original idea for the organization and has done all the work to build it up thus far". You mention Calhoun, and I think that is a great example. He has put in a lot of work drafting up how the Ring should look and work. He has done an excellent job gathering input and implementing it. There are a few other people who have stepped up to the plate who were not part of the founding group but they have also been extremely instrumental in building the foundation of the organization.
I also feel like waiting to fill the positions until EE is too long of a wait to go without confirmed leaders. I had always imagined it where we held elections again right before EE, and I still think that is a good idea.
I'm also really excited to see that you plan to submit another proposal. The more we have the better it is going to be.
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